In this latest episode, we start working our way through Robert Greene’s 48 Law of Power to reveal the foundational principles behind effective influence.
We’re starting with what we’ve considered the foundational laws that go through building your reputation, making yourself known, and making yourself scarce. Did you know that winning arguments often diminishes your power rather than enhances it?
From Nelson Mandela's masterful prison strategy to the car salesman who unwittingly handed over his negotiating leverage, this episode is packed with stories that illuminate how power really works.
Whether you're navigating office politics, building a business, or just trying to get your kids to clean their rooms, understanding these power dynamics changes everything.
Power isn't about domination—it's about strategic influence. And the first step is learning the rules of the game everyone else is already playing.
Talk soon,
Jeff
Also, in our next episode, we'll reveal how adaptability might be your greatest power asset. Subscribe so you don't miss it!
Introduction
Jeff: Welcome to Masters of Influence and our reading of the 48 Laws of Power. I started reading this book a while back and really enjoyed it. I was fascinated by how I kept seeing these different laws pop up all over the place. I'm not saying it's the end-all-be-all of laws or power, but I think there's some really interesting stuff we can take away from these 48 laws.
Our plan is to go through them, not one by one—that would take quite a while—but we're going to group them into categories. I'm Jeff Loehr, doing this with Joe Rojas.
Joe: You did introduce me in the last one!
Jeff: And now I did again! So Joe and I are going to talk about this over a few weeks and go into each category of laws. Today we're going to talk about foundational power. I've identified five laws that I think fit into this foundational power area.
Before we get there, I read some reviews of the 48 Laws, and I was charmed that there were so many saying, "Oh, this is evil" and "This is terrible." So I wanted to pose the question: Is power ethical, Joe? What do you think, is power ethical?
Joe: I think you want to separate power from the use of power, and separate power from the people. Can power be ethical? Absolutely.
Jeff: That's kind of the point, right? Whatever side you're on—and I don't believe in just two sides to every argument, I think there are like 25 sides—but let's say there's A, B, C, and D, and everybody's against each other. If only A has power and B, C, and D say, "We don't want power, we don't believe in power," then how are they ever going to counter A or get their ideas out there?
I heard an interview with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez about her approach to power. Someone asked her, "What is power? Is it ethical for you to be wielding power?" And she made the point that if we don't try to take power, if we don't try to exert power, then we're never going to have a voice. Someone else is always going to dominate.
We called this podcast "Masters of Influence" rather than "Masters of Power" because there's a connection between influence and power—it's about how you can use power to influence. This brings to mind Cialdini and his influence levers, how you influence. He talks a lot about the ethics of influence and being ethical in your approach. That's something we have to keep in mind as we define ethics and power.
One reason people react to the 48 Laws as if they weren't ethical is that Greene has used some incendiary language. He talks about your opposition as "suckers," and he puts them down. This is different from Cialdini's "we're going to be ethical about things" approach. Greene doesn't bother with ethics, and I think that's on purpose—it sells books. But we don't have to think of everybody as a mark or a sucker. It's more about how we have influence, how we get ideas out there, how we steer our businesses and our lives—how we don't get controlled by all the forces that are out there.
Joe: As I was doing research for this episode, I started thinking about who are the people in my life who have been instrumental. In 1982, the movie Gandhi came out. I was 12 years old and went to see it because I was very interested in him. I got what power can look like when you use power ethically.
Jeff: We're actually going to do another episode on Gandhi and the salt marches. There's a really interesting parallel to what's happening today, but that's a foreshadowing.
Joe: We use power in our relationships—who decides what's for dinner, power with our kids. We exert power over our kids, and then there's a process by which we cede power back to them over time. You're looking at power and influence when you're negotiating to get your car fixed or buying a car.
One of my favorite stories in buying a car: I bought a Honda CR-V years ago, and during negotiations, I said I wanted all the extras because I love all the extras. There was an alarm system, and I knew I was willing to pay $99 for it. They wanted $399.
The salesman came back to me and said, "This alarm, it's $399, we've already installed it and it's going to take us an hour of labor just to take the alarm out." Behind him was a sign showing their labor cost at $75 an hour. I looked at that and said, "Well, that's going to cost you $75. I'll tell you what, I'll take it off your hands if you only pay me $37.50. That saves you $37.50 because I really don't want to make this hard for you."
The guy looked at me like, "What just happened?" I ended up getting the alarm for half of what I was willing to pay because he gave me all the power in the negotiation.
I think power is crucial for everything we do day-to-day and for living our purpose. To live your purpose, you're going to have to have some power.
Jeff: Absolutely. If you don't exert power, you're just at the whim of whoever's in front of you, whether it's the car dealer, the phone company, or your kids.
The Five Foundational Laws
Jeff: Let's talk about the first five laws. There's no real science to my grouping here—this is just my thinking around how these things come together. I'm calling these "foundational rules" because I think they're foundational to how we exert and create power.
By the way, you said something interesting about somebody having power or not having power. I think we all actually have power—the question is whether we claim it. I've been thinking about how I can claim the power that I have and consolidate it. We have very powerful means of communication and influence at our disposal that we haven't had before. It's a blessing and a curse, but we have power. The question is how we claim and exert it.
So, the foundational laws:
Law #1: Never outshine the master. This is the idea that if you're working for somebody else, if there's somebody superior to you, you don't want to make them look bad.
Law #6: Court attention at all costs. Everything is judged by what's seen, so you want attention. You don't want to outshine the master, but you want to be sure people are seeing you and you're making a splash. This is the "no press is bad press" concept.
Law #5: So much depends on reputation. Guard it with your life. Once people think of you in a certain way, it's hard to change that perception. If you can build a reputation and strengthen that brand, people understand you in a certain way.
Law #9: Win through actions, never through argument. Actions determine things. If you convince somebody with an argument, that conviction is weak—they're not really on your side. If you have to cajole somebody, they don't actually support you.
Law #16: Use absence to increase respect and honor. There's a desire for us to be present all the time, but we miss the opportunity that exists in absence, in scarcity, in not being always available.
Taken together, these are foundational laws that, if we start applying them in our daily lives, can help us consolidate power.
Joe, what struck you in reading about these laws?
Discussion of the Laws
Joe: For Law #16, "Use absence to increase respect and honor," I thought about Mandela. It wasn't optional for him to use absence, but when it happened, he really did increase respect and honor.
And Law #9, "Win through your actions, never through your argument"—they offered to let Mandela out of jail if he'd stop talking about apartheid, and he said no. So they kept him in jail. Through his actions, not arguments, he made his point very clear.
I think these laws struck me because we often think about power as force, but force and power are two different animals. Force is just one part of power.
Jeff: Yes, force is one type of power, one section of power. That's also interesting when we talk about ethics—we're not talking about beating people up.
Your point about Nelson Mandela—who by the way, I lived in South Africa for a number of years, and I refer to him as "Madiba," which means "Father" in South Africa—is spot on. Madiba established his brand and reputation before going to jail, and then his absence made him stronger.
This is something the strongman forgets—locking people up or making them martyrs is a bad move. It strengthens their reputation and removes them from the group, which makes them more attractive. People want to know more about them, not less. It also conveys a certain humility, making them look more like the oppressed.
When Madiba came out of jail, he was having conversations with de Klerk. What's interesting about the transition of power in South Africa is that there could have been a very bloody war, but there wasn't—because of the actions both leaders took. It wasn't just hyperbole or rhetoric; they took decisive actions. They negotiated privately, then came out together. They planned their actions and presentation in a way that dramatically strengthened the power of the movement and the negotiation.
Let me tell my board story about "never outshine the master." I was working for a company with five gold mines, and they wanted to close two of them. I showed them they were going to lose money by doing this. The CEO didn't want me to do this—I was the consultant, and the CEO was the master. I ignored the "never outshine the master" rule and went straight at it: "This is a dumb idea." I showed how smart I was by demonstrating they'd lose money, and I did this in front of his peers. He was not happy about it.
It wasn't good for my reputation. I got some additional attention as security guards escorted me out of the room. My actions weren't supporting my arguments; I wasn't winning anybody over. I think we fall into this trap a lot—we look at senior people doing stupid things, and we say, "Hey, don't do that. It's stupid."
Joe: I had a similar experience in the Army during advanced individual training. We were restoring a clinic, and the sergeant in charge had no construction experience and was doing dumb things. I kept trying to tell him, but he'd say, "Shut up, soldier. You're just a private."
One day the drill sergeant (his boss) came by, and I found my way over to him and explained how we could do things better. The drill sergeant called the sergeant over and dressed him down. After that, I found myself on KP duty (kitchen patrol) washing dishes for the next 12 weekends from 8 AM to 8 PM. What I didn't know was that this sergeant had power over what I'd be doing at any given time.
Jeff: You went from a cushy construction job to washing dishes, and you got some attention, but not the kind you wanted! In my example, about 18 months later, I was back in the CEO's office discussing how we were going to explain the mess to his investors. I didn't say, "I told you this would be a mess," because I'd learned my lesson and brought some humility to the situation.
I think there's a line between sycophancy and respecting the political situation. In the current political regime, there's a demand for sycophancy—you must do what I say, the way I say it, never go against me. And anybody who plays to that rule is just a sycophant.
But there's a difference between that and realizing your boss is your boss. If you have good ideas, you go to your boss, and they may take the ideas or not. When you go over their head, it never works out well for you. Even if your boss fails, you support them. It's not about kissing up—it's about respecting the challenges they face.
By not outshining the master, you get more opportunity to take actions and build a reputation that enhances how your boss sees you, without making them look bad. You don't get a lot of power by making people look bad.
Joe: In the book's example of "never outshine the master," it's a political thing. Nicholas threw a party that was so fancy it made the king's parties look bad. All he did was throw a party that was too extravagant.
Jeff: You're talking about Nicholas Fouquet and Louis XIV. Greene tells how Nicholas threw this massive party and invited Louis XIV, trying to make it extravagant to impress the king. But the king thought, "This guy looks like a better party-thrower than I am."
Nicholas ended up being arrested by the king's head musketeer, went on trial for stealing from the treasury, and was thrown into prison. He spent the last 20 years of his life in solitary confinement, thanks to throwing a party that upstaged the king.
It's understanding that people in power have feelings too, and people don't like to be insulted.
Joe: He threw the party in honor of the king, but the king was not happy.
Jeff: I like how Greene says, "Commit harmless mistakes that will not hurt you in the long run, but that will give you a chance to ask for his help." This is some of the language that gets Greene in trouble: "Masters adore such requests." He continues, "Those who cannot bestow on you the gifts of their expertise may direct rank ill will at you instead."
I think as someone who manages people, there is something about when people come asking questions and showing interest—it's easier to give them more responsibility because they're listening. If you're always trying to make your boss look bad, you won't win many friends.
So how do you court attention without outshining the master?
Joe: Looking at the current VP, he's masterful at that. Every time he opens his mouth, he prefaces with adoration: "Our President Trump..." Nothing is his idea; everything is Trump's idea. But if you actually listen, he's selling his ideas as Trump's ideas. He's very good at it, and it's almost disturbing how he speaks with this reverence that, if you're listening carefully, you can tell isn't real.
Jeff: This is the key to how people manipulate Trump—he's thin-skinned and narcissistic, so you can easily influence him by playing to that insecurity, by reinforcing how wonderful he is, even while you're doing something else.
But what the VP has to look out for is the reputation side. Greene writes, "Reputation has a power like magic: with one stroke of its wand, it can double your strength. It can also send people scurrying away from you."
If the VP has a certain reputation and then the world changes, it'll be harder for him to back away from that. If the MAGA cult stops being as strong as it is, it will be difficult for those Republicans to recover their reputations.
Regarding winning through actions, Greene writes, "In the realm of power, you must learn to judge your moves by their long-term effect on other people. The problem in trying to prove a point or gain a victory through argument is that you can never be certain how it affects the people you're arguing with."
I have an example from college. In a communication course, the professor would sometimes berate students for talking. This was shocking because he was normally a nice, teddy-bear type of guy. Later, I found out this was staged. He did it because he knew he was nice and people would take advantage. Instead of just asking everyone to be quiet, he staged these events so people would think, "I don't want the nice professor to call me out in front of everyone."
Another example from the book relates to Russia. A heckler once interrupted Nikita Khrushchev during a speech denouncing Stalin's crimes, saying, "You were Stalin's colleague. Why didn't you stop him?" Khrushchev couldn't see the heckler and barked, "Who said that?" No one moved. After a few seconds of silence, Khrushchev said quietly, "Now you know why I didn't stop him."
Joe: You have to cause the "pucker effect." When Khrushchev said that, the pucker effect was palpable in the air. In that moment, everyone got it—they were probably all afraid there was a sniper ready to take out whoever spoke up.
Jeff: Exactly. That moment of communication goes well beyond words.
Joe: If you're the speaker, you have to be present in a way that can cause that level of pregnant pause, that puts everybody in a mental frame where you can create an experiential moment.
Jeff: I think we can do that more than we think. If you're standing in front of a group or leading a country, you have more opportunities to exert that kind of power. But this happens in little ways all the time—there are lots of ways we can show rather than say, demonstrate the argument without making it.
This is one way you can avoid outshining the master while still exerting control—when you're giving examples or demonstrating instead of arguing, and then giving credit back to the master. That wins you a lot of favor.
Joe: It's funny—give the praise to the master. I was listening to Fareed Zakaria yesterday talking about what happened with Zelensky and the shouting match in the Oval Office. He said the only thing Zelensky did wrong was not saying, "Oh, Mr. Trump, President Trump, we created the highest honor ever in Ukraine to bestow upon you, and we're going to let you build the largest Trump Tower in Ukraine." The conversation would have gone completely differently.
Jeff: Zelensky did bring a gift—some sort of heavyweight belt—but it wasn't meaningful to Trump. It was meaningful for Ukraine, not for Trump. If Zelensky had come in saying, "Before we go further, President Trump, I want to give you the highest honor Ukraine has ever created," that would have diffused the situation.
I don't know if Zelensky realized he was walking into a trap, but the next person will. If you create something small, make him feel like the big man, and play directly into his ego, it'll be hard for him to act against that.
Joe: I call it the TikTok strategy. Every politician was for banning TikTok—its days were numbered. Then the TikTok algorithm changed, and Trump became the one trending thing on TikTok. Don't make an argument that TikTok is good—just make the master look great. Suddenly TikTok is off the chopping block.
Jeff: Trump says it straight: "We were going to ban TikTok, but I'm really popular on TikTok." He's essentially saying, "I am a child, all I care about is attention, and I'll go against my principles if someone pays attention to me." That's a powerful observation and one way people can use these powers against Trump.
Joe: The King of Jordan did this masterfully. Trump told him to take in Palestinians, giving him a number. The King said, "You're right, we'll take that many children, give them medical treatment, and send them back." He agreed to the number but changed the context.
Jeff: I want to tell another story about Michelangelo putting final touches on a statue (likely the David). Soderini, Florence's mayor who commissioned the work, saw himself as an art connoisseur. He looked at the statue and said the nose was too big.
Michelangelo realized Soderini was standing right under the giant figure without proper perspective. Instead of arguing, he gestured for Soderini to follow him up the scaffolding. Reaching the nose, Michelangelo picked up his chisel and some marble dust, then pretended to work on the nose while actually doing nothing except letting the dust fall.
After a few minutes, he stood aside and asked Soderini to look again. Soderini said, "I like it much better. You've made it come alive." Michelangelo changed the perspective rather than the nose, and instead of trying to convince Soderini with words, he let him discover it himself.
This is something we can bring into our daily lives—showing people things, helping them have realizations themselves rather than trying to convince them. As a consultant, your responsibility isn't to make yourself look good but to make your client—the master—look good.
Joe: That reminds me of Christopher Wren, who built columns that didn't quite reach the ceiling because he knew they weren't structurally necessary, but the mayor thought they were. The columns are still there with a gap at the top, and the structure is still standing.
Jeff: The last law we should discuss is "Use absence to increase respect and honor." The idea is that too much circulation makes the price go down—the more you're seen and heard, the more common you appear. We see how scarcity drives action, like Mandela behind bars driving interest in him.
Greene gives an example in terms of love and seduction: "The lover's absence stimulates your imagination, forming an aura around them. But this aura fades when you know too much, when your imagination no longer has room to roam. The loved one becomes a person like anyone else, whose presence is taken for granted."
We say "absence makes the heart grow fonder," and scarcity helps make sales. We take actions because we're afraid things will go away—the fear of missing out (FOMO).
There's an interesting balance here—court attention at all costs, but also make yourself scarce. These laws sometimes contradict each other, which raises the question: how can they both be true?
Greene explains that this law only applies once a certain level of power has been attained. If nobody knows who you are, not being present doesn't matter. The need to withdraw only comes after you've established your presence. Leave too early, and you're simply forgotten.
As we establish our reputation and increase our power through courting attention, we need to consider when it's the right time to step back, to not be always available.
Joe, you're an amazing salesman, and one of your favorite quotes is "time kills all deals." That's unequivocally true, except there are times when not having access to something makes it more interesting.
Joe: It does, but there are two aspects to that. If nobody knows your product, then time kills all deals. If you've built an iPhone, people will stand in line. If you have Air Jordans, people will stand in line.
You have to build the reputation and brand first, then create the scarcity. If you try the other way around, you make no money.
Jeff: I think you can also do it one-on-one. You can build intrigue and engagement individually, then take it away from somebody. That taking away can be very painful.
Another truism that comes from Cialdini's book on influence is that it's much more painful for people to have things taken away than to be given things. If they think they have something and you start to take it away, that can be very painful. That's one way to use absence to increase the attractiveness of what you're selling.
Joe: Barbara Streisand and Celine Dion know how to do that. They announce, "No more concerts," and then they do a tour. They create scarcity—"I'm never going to do it again"—and then when they announce something, people get excited.
Jeff: Madonna does this too. It's the art of the comeback tour—"We haven't played for 15 years, but we're back." Absence means there's suddenly much more interest.
Joe: The Rolling Stones are the masters of the comeback.
Jeff: My dad took me to see them when I was in high school when the Rolling Stones started playing again. My dad, who never does stuff like that, bought scalped tickets to take me on a school night to watch them. I didn't even know he was that big a fan, but it was so exciting that they were coming back—that blast from the past.
This also applies to things like our accelerator—it's here, then it's gone, then it comes back. That creates the feeling of "it might get taken away from me," which gives this law some of its power.
Conclusion
Jeff: So those are the five laws: Court attention at all costs; so much depends on reputation—guard it with your life; win through your actions, never through argument; use absence to increase respect and honor; and never outshine the master.
In our next episode on the 48 Laws, we'll talk about adaptability and survival with laws 36 through 40: Disdain things you cannot have; create compelling spectacles; think as you like, but behave like others; stir up waters to catch fish; and despise the free lunch.
If you want to play along at home, you can read those laws, and we'll discuss them next time. Please let us know your comments and share any stories. We love questions, comments, snide remarks—we're happy to engage in the conversation. Any parting words, Joe?
Joe: Stay informed. If you want to master influence and power, you have to know what's going on around you.
Jeff: Stay informed and join us next time for a conversation on adaptability and survival. Check out some of our other episodes, and we'll talk to you soon on Masters of Influence.
That's it for this episode of Masters of Influence. If you enjoyed the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who wants to understand power. Until next time, stay sharp, stay aware, and keep mastering the game.
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